You all can blame HxfTenor's little slip-up in his comment on jlcrowl's blog a couple days ago for the inspiration for this blog. I may be making his character MiQiu suffer in our Sabbat Chronicle for this... (No, not really... but I thought about it.
) I had originally planned to propose a possible way to do some "social combat", continuing in the same vein as my fellow bloggers (which will happen next week barring any more unfortunate "accidents"...), but this issue is arguably more worrying.
I believe this was an honest mistake on HxfTenor's part (one he corrects less than a full sentence later), but it may not be such an honest mistake on those players new to the World of Darkness and how things work in it, both within the lore and within Storytelling mechanics. It might even be something we have to worry about the developers thinking, if they decide to go more "mainstream" than VTM - Redemption, VTM - Bloodlines, and EVE Online would have us believe. I want to make sure that neither the developers nor the future community of the WODMMO get stuck in traditional, WoW-paradigm thinking. Borrowing from tried-and-true concepts is one thing, but if I wanted to play a game exactly like every other MMO out there... I'd re-subscribe to one of them.
There are many important differences between a class-based system, and the Storytelling system (the "Clan-based" system). A class-based system, such as seen in games like Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of WarCraft, Guild Wars, and even many multiplayer FPSes, is often paired with a level system - you can define yourself as "a level 8 Rogue" or "a level 80 Mage" - and a racial system - "a level 80 Forsaken Mage". While I can only hope that the intent of these many distinctions is to provide players with more options and combinations, my experience of them has been just the opposite: I feel limited by the choices I make, and no single class, race, or tier of levels can hope to satisfy everything that needs to be done in a game. I have to "choose" between being good at melee combat or casting spells; I have to choose to be a weak-Constitution elf or a strong-Constitution half-orc. Even in systems that allow you to "multi-class", there's still only so much you can do to fully customize your character to suit your exact preferences.
One of the things I've long admired about the Storytelling system of mechanics is that it does not have this problem. In the games produced by White Wolf Publishing and Crowd Control Productions, they basically give you the resources, but you choose how to spend them. "Clan," I am extremely fond of saying, "is a suggestion, not a rule". There are stereotypes within the World of Darkness, of course - just like you have the stereotypical Warrior or Warlock - but the extremely nice thing about the Storytelling system is that you actually get a chance to break those stereotypes if you choose to. If I were playing a Gangrel according to a class-based system, I would perenially be a high-Strength, high-Stamina, low-Charisma, low-Intelligence tank/DPS. Thankfully, I've yet to see anyone really be able to apply the same archetype "classes" to the Storytelling ruleset. Beckett is a scholar-Gangrel; Mark Decker is a Prince; Inyanga is some sort of witchy-shapeshifting-Neutral-Good-sage-vampire. Very few Clans or Bloodlines fall into a neat little archetype like "warrior" or "rogue". We have to apply a lot more adjectives to a character in order to define them in the Storytelling system that we do in any such class-based system. Rick Gentle, Gangrel Playboy, could not properly exist in a class-based system. He would have to be a Warrior/Bard/Rogue with a weird selection of feats and skills that go beyond what any of those three classes would allow. It is much simpler, I think, to simply play around with the freedom of selection used in the Storyteller system.
So why is this system such a good one for the World of Darkness MMORPG? The simple answer is because it is meant to be. The World of Darkness - and hopefully its upcoming MMO - is all about political, social, and moral complexity. A linear class-based system which sets characters down a straight-and-narrow path, or who use an easily-uncovered alignment, are not conductive to this level of play. In order for there to be surprises and plot twists and sudden changes of allegiances in the World of Darkness, characters have to have the room to branch out and take things in a new direction. Failing at confronting the tyrannical Assamite Elder head-on? Use some of your Social or Mental Abilities to butter up the Tremere and get him cursed. (And you just know the Tremere are itching to put a curse back on Clan Assamite.) If you're a Warrior-Druid-Vampire, however, you're pretty much stuck with the head-on approach. If you're lucky, your stealth skills are high enough so that you can get a backstab bonus first. This still does not account for the fact that the Tremere has to deliver his curse via stabbing the Assamite with his wooden cane-stake - a spellcasting class uniformally sucks at melee combat, so the Tremere would be pretty screwed. However, in the World of Darkness, that same Tremere could also be a master of fencing (Melee 4) without having to take "levels" in "Warrior"; just spend a few more dots in Melee.
Now, I don't want to bash other systems for the way they choose to approach character progression and conceptualizing the extremely complex way things might realistically work out if we were a half-orc who likes bashing things over the head. I still play Dungeons and Dragons Online, and the leveling system in that admirable game has many bonuses: levels and classes are linear, you know exactly what you're getting, I know what direction to take my character to get what I want. Level and class systems are great if you already know everything about your concept and know how to respond to any given situation. The difference I'd like to point out in the WODMMO has a lot to do with what we've seen so far in games like Bloodlines and EVE Online. Bloodlines did a passable job of giving players options in approaching a given situation. For a combat-based game, there were a surprisingly high number of instances where you could solve a quest via a stealthy/Mental or Social approach. You could even generalize in all three loose types of engagement to be prepared for just about anything. In EVE Online, you can choose to be just about anything you want to be, and the only thing standing in your way is time. If I'm an Amarr, I do not have to choose heavy armor and laser weapons - I can choose small, light ships that pound the enemy with railguns.
There are a lot of ways the developers could have chosen to approach the WODMMO, from the WoW-paradigm of classes, levels, PvP, and raiding to EVE Online's sandboxy "Go have fun, kids!", but from what we've heard so far, they're taking it in a new direction entirely. For games that rely on established paradigms, levels and classes are extremely simple and easy to use. However, for a game that is reportedly going to rely much more heavily on complex player interaction, with politics and prestation actually having an effect on the game, we need a much more versatile system to be able to capture our own individual character, who may need to respond to a much larger variety of situations than they would face as your average Warrior or Priest. We need to be able to defend ourselves from any angle - and better yet, be able to attack from many more angles. Class- and level-based systems might be appropriate to other games, but we really, really need the "Clan-based" system for the WODMMO, where "Clan" is a suggestion, not a rule.
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Ivini
307 days ago
Having played numerous games, some having huge limits to what you could have… I would say a ‘clan’ system over ‘class’ would work wonders, in some regards. But before I go into combat systems or the class system, all those classes would have no impact on social interaction. Thusly, any clan (apart from the Nossies, sorry!) could interact in anyway shape or form. Naturally, the Nossies are too repulsive to attempt the social game normally and the Malks have the whole… random event issue. (wondering off, socially awkward behaviours) So if the Vampire clans were forced into a somewhat… class-ish system in what they specialise in, it wouldn’t be the end game… although some would find it somewhat annoying. I could see, for example, the Malkavians would be small arms and knife ambush types… whilst a Nossie would likely ambush with a Claymore or M40 50.Cal Machine gun. For those who played Lineage 2, would find the Dark Elves and Elves had mirror types, the Dark naturally playing with Death and the Light playing with the Elements – whilst Humanity got stuck in over-specialising and having the best of 1, but lacking of all others… like the Human Necromancer had a minor and dubuff set, but the Dark Elves had all those Debuffs and massive DPS with the Spellhowler. It also meant that some guilds only wanted certain races, for pvp reasons and ‘lore’ reasons… it created some interesting interaction – it was also quite nice to see several dozen Dark Elves walk into their hometown in bondage gear and what not and several melee types on Dragonback. Rift allows all social interactions regardless of race; in some regards, we could look at rift and argue they have the ‘disciplines’ down to a tee. All the clans disciplines will have branches on what to use them – social and combat related, all of them. I also hope if someone has Dominate, each skill would have 2 uses – so a combat orientated Ventrue wouldn’t be completely hindered when coming back to his tower. SWG; I would argue, being the best Sandbox game around before it died didn’t mess around with social and combat – combat was combat, whilst social was completely in the hands of the playerbase. As it should have been, and although Officers/Bounty hunters and the Commando types would roleplay Stormtroopers the most or the Jedi pretending to be part of an Order – you could switch roles at any point with little effort. Complete freedom of appearance (save race/gender) and class/profession. Now, my mind is made up; regardless on how the races are split up, combat favoured classes skilled up – I will be making a Human with the sole purpose of becoming a Malkavian. No one here, or anywhere else will get me to make another type before this one. If a Nossie turns me I’ll delete until I get what I want. This’ll happen, regardless of the combat plans of the race, class, blood … whatever term is used. If I’m going to have to specialise in broken glass and razor blades, so be it… if I’m more suited to being a ‘spy’ as much as I hated them in SWG, so be it. But, if this game turns out to have… way more choice, in our limitations of disciplines – all the better. Auspex, demention and the one I can never spell… all have some fun applications in both social and combat situations. But as it stands, we have already been classified in class types… until we see the branches of the trees we each have, we all know our role already.
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To demonstrate how a class-based system goes down, let me tell you a tale from the past couple days I've spent in Dungeons and Dragons Online. ---- Since I came back to the game, they have put in the "Pale Master" Prestige class for Wizards ("Pale Masters" are basically guys who try to transform themselves into undead). I like this concept, so I've been trying to convert my primary Wizard over into a Pale Master... the problem is that he sucks at playing one. Pale Masters channel a lot of negative energy through touch, allowing them to create undead minions, age people with a touch, and sometimes replace their own limbs with skeletal prosthetics. ---- The problem is my Wizard, being a Wizard, sucks at melee combat, which is necessary to deliver some of the Pale Master's signature touch attacks. For the past several days, I've been finangling with the character creator system, eventually shelling out for an advanced system that lets me play a Pale Master from the start of my character. I had to overcome the "bad touching" problem by multi-classing as a Wizard/Monk. This actually benefits a Wizard class in a lot of ways, including better saves, stronger combat ability, and eventually the ability to Meditate, which replenishes all sorts of good energy. ---- The reason why I bring up this situation is that it would not be nearly such a pain in the ass to handle with the Storyteller system and "Clan-based" rules. Thehre would be no problem having a traditionally "spellcasting Clan" - say, the Tremere or a Tzimisce koldun, or most appropriately a Giovanni necromancer - putting dots in Unarmed... well, aside from the fact that he could suck out your soul by poking you.
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HfxTenor
313 days ago
It was a typo, I swear!!!! Yeesh....I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.....
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Nhile
313 days ago
I have almost finished converting VTM to D20 Pathfinder rules, and it has a very unique feel to it when you have a race, class, and clan. Between leveling andbuying ranks in disciplines it has a very cool feel to it. I love the WoD so I wanted to bring that feel to Dungeons and Dragons. I've got a great balanced group of roleplayers so this combination works great. I don't hink that a level based mechanic would work for WoDMMO, so I completely agree with you. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that WoD is based around political, social, and moral descisions that don't lend well to other current MMO systems. We need a system that allows us to play our clan in any manor we desire. The Nosferatu clan itself could be played as completely social/political, completely combat oriented, or anywhere else on the continuum inbetween. I think for the most part any clan can be a combat or social character. I once had a Toreador who was very combat oriented, because I got sick of others always portraying them as social wussies, who only deal in mental disciplines. This type of disservice would almost always be present in a level based MMO. We need the freedom that pen and paper RPGs provide, and waiting to see how this is handled both excites and worries me. Love your post, keep them coming!
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5 Merits
313 days ago
I've often thought about converting various game settings to other rulesets, but primarily this goes from VTM Revised or V20 rules to other game settings. I would be interested in playing vampires in D&D, but only using D&D rules; for some reason, I just can't see using D&D rules to portray a modern setting as politically complex as the World of Darkness. ---- A lot of the versatility required to pull off this kind of decision-making means putting a heavy, heavy burden on the developers. They did an okay job with versatility in EVE Online, but in EVE Online they don't have mystical powers that can influence other player-characters' emotions. Some Clans are really easy to implement in certain ways - like the Gangrel and combat - but it would get really boring really fast if that's the only thing they were good at, like Warriors. The reason why so many classes and races get stereotyped is because the rules only let them do one thing; they become overly specialized, so you have to either take a LOT of multi-classes, or go play a game where versatility is worked in.
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