Created 303 days ago
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HfxTenor
Gamer, Singer, Trainer, Storyteller, and all-around swell cat.
Been playing WoD since the original VtM came out back in 1991, though I've been into RPG's since the D&D red-box in Grade 6.
First book I ever read: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe (I have the hots for sinister female leads thanks to this novel)
Favourite Movie: The Sound of Music
Favourite Computer Game: Any adventure game by Sierra On-Line, particularly the Gabriel Knight series.
Merit: 4 Flaw: 0
Masquerade
Mortal Kombat
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PvP
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Tradition
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World of Darkness Blog
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I finally come to the 6th Tradition – Destruction. The 6th Tradition states that the right to kill Kindred is reserved for the Elder of a community, and only the Elder can call a blood hunt. In modern nights, the role of the Elder is traditionally upheld by the Prince.
I’ve never been a big fan of PvP in video games (Player vs. Player for the uninitiated). I participate, and occasionally achieve a success or two here and there, but it’s never held much interest or satisfaction for me. I think I’ve come to realize why, and this opinion may cause some controversy (heh heh heh) – PvP seems to primarily attract those with the immature need to prove how much better they are than everyone else.
When I was a teenager and then a young adult, most video games were single player affairs, with the exception of fighting games at the local arcade. I didn’t receive an allowance, and didn’t have time for a job, so time in the local arcades was mostly spent watching my friends kick the snot out of each other in Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat and so on. I basically skipped that phase in my psyche, exorcising that need through school/college sports. To be fair, I also find personal confrontation uncomfortable and tend to avoid it when possible.
As I’ve matured, my need to establish my prowess at besting strangers in a video game has basically vanished. Do I think less of people who enjoy PvP? Of course not. PvP can be really fun! But I prefer storyline and visuals. I like my conflict to be the struggle of my character to improve and solve the dilemnas that are place in my path.
So with all that in mind, let’s consider the 6th Tradition in relation to the WoDMMO.
- CCP has already stated that they are strongly leaning toward perma-death for characters that die in combat, especially at the hands of another player.
- In Vampire: the Masquerade, Kindred cannot be slain without the explicit approval and permission of the Prince.
- CCP has also stated that PvE will only play a small role in the game and that the majority of play will be social interaction between players and PvP.
These three things seem to imply that all PvP involving Kindred vs Kindred will have to have approval from the Prince, since the loser of the fight will permanently lose their character. Only Kindred vs. Mortal (pointless) and Mortal vs. Mortal combat will be able to occur without a Prince’s knowledge.
The only way to circumvent such a headache would be for CCP to implement a completely separate set of mechanics to allow PvP to be non-lethal, but that would break their own desire to have meaningful combat with meaningful consequences. Quite the conundrum!
Personally, I’m very much in favour of removing any kind of “casual” PvP where people enter battlegrounds or tournament zones just to spar. It’s completely immersion-breaking. When was the last time you walked through a park and came across a group of supernatural beings whaling on each other just to find out each other’s strengths and weaknesses? How often do warring states call each other up and say “Hey Ruslan! Wanna get our armies together on Thursday night and have at it? We’ve developed some new weapons and tactics we’d like to try out, you don’t mind right?” From the realism standpoint, it’s ludicrous.
With that in mind, I’m hoping they won’t just discard the 6th Tradition, but will instead discard the notion of casual PvP.
5 Comments
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0 Merits
Malena
292 days ago
If we would have the boons system in the game, there should be also Compensation system included, following the destruction. Just a side note.
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4 Merits
Deodanth
302 days ago
ok...here one thing, the Original Post correctly points out the Camarilla 6th Tradition and states - "In Vampire: the Masquerade, Kindred cannot be slain without the explicit approval and permission of the Prince." one error here, they CAN be slain...it's just that if the Prince or Sheriff finds out, there may be repercussions... the sabbat, caitiff and those who are sneaky/don't care about the Prince can also easily kill whom they like...they just [b]don't want to get caught![/b], yes? that makes a HUGE difference, after all..in a large city, who would really know if they did not see it for themselves? if the body is left for the Sun to dispose of...how do you prove it? this gives some ideas as to ways that the Tradition can be worked around as well as adding plotlines for those who violate it now, as to PvP itself...in the WoD rules it's inevitable that Players conflict and how CCP plans on resolving that will be a crucial aspect of the MMO...simplicity itself to allow most combat to end in Torpor (in EVE getting your ship blown up, but NOT "podded"), allowing the defeated to recover...but with the potential of Diablerie as well as Final Death, Player combat becomes MEANINGFUL...there are consequences example: only EVE and Shadowbane ever really had meaningful combat (some could say UO as well with it's full loot), in each of these examples you can do as you like, but you must face the consequences....gank some lowbie all by himself and you could lose territory as his guildmates/corp members retaliate...this gave an intensity and flavor to everything that NO other MMO has achieved (and i've played most of them since Meridian)...the spine chilling excitement of your actions having Player enforced consequences, the uncertainty of what would happen...the feeling of danger and THAT should be the core of the WoDMMO, imo....real consequences, determined by Players, not lines of code that's just my one sixth billionths of the world's opinion, your mileage may vary
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1 Merits
DoPo
302 days ago
Hmm, I disagree - I see no reason PvP to not be in the game, even "casual" one. There are lots of ways to implement it so it makes sense. First of all, it makes sense to have these fights NOT to the (permanent) death. Two vampires can happily spar as long as none gets destroyed in the end. This brings me to the second point: these "PvP events" (probably would be called "duels" or similar in-game) would be observed and approved by the Prince/society. With that said, you don't have to go to the park where everybody can see you - a private club for underground fights could be just as good. Go there, throw some supernatural powers around without fear of breaking the Masquerade, also give that Beast some workout so it wouldn't consume you during the night, and everybody leaves happy. Or relatively happy, given that it's VtM. But at any rate, I see no reason for the vampires not to have a fight club. They may even have more than one. And it's not like it never happened: - the Tremere already have that Certamen aptitude in their history (back from Ars Magicka). They even still practice it (Blood Certamen, Tremere Clanbook p.61). - similarly the Brujah are fond of brawls, so perhaps they can just go more official with them. - the Gangrel can have something more like a hunt organised, for example - one or more "prey" must race to get reach some goal (get somewhere/find something/hold out for X amount of time/not be found) while the "hunters" are after them. If somebody gets incapacitated, they are automatically out of the game. So hunters can fight with prey but also prey and hunters have to choose to ally or fight each other. Something like a cross between Survivor, scavenger hunt (for the prey will have some goals) and prisoner's dilemma of a larger scale and with bloodthirsty monsters. - the Anarchs already have a game called "nines", short for "nine millimetre tag" (Guide to the Anarchs, p. 72). It is what it sounds like - they just go somewhere desolate - park/forest/whatever, and pretty much play paintball with real guns and supernatural powers. Nobody gets hurt (well, sort of, but they get better) and no mortal suspects a thing. - the Anarchs have other games, as well, one of (maybe modified) is really appropriate for "PvP" - it's called Los Angeles Roulette (GtA, p.73) - two vampires take turns hitting each other. Most probably with a bat or a pipe. The game ends when one submits, falls into torpor (which is rare) or the bat/pipe/weapon breaks. This can easily be modified for to be more "Camarilla appropriate" - the two pound each other for a set amount of time or something. And so on, and so forth. What I'm trying to say is - PvP can be implemented, and it shouldn't even be immersion breaking. And most importantly, PvP shouldn't mean perma death - you can easily consider that the loser "gives up" when their HP runs out, more "hardcore" duels may last until torpor (if in the game) and possibly only truly exceptional matches will be till perma death. That's when the Prince comes in with the approval.
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4 Merits
Bjorn Stalvind
302 days ago
I agree with the elimination of battlegrounds and tournament zones. Also EVE has neither so there is a very good chance that they will not be in the game. I will also have to say that there are such things as 'war' games and simulation rounds in the military. Also, martial artists tend to spar a lot, and I have seen classes done in parks. Ooh... and LARPers running around in parks and throwing little bags of sand colored like fireballs.. So... yeah... not that ludicrous.
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