First let me say that I do appreciate Werewolf: the Apocalypse, I just don’t like it. At all. Like, not even a little. The game was a square peg forced into a round hole. As a great man once said “Let me splain. No. There is no time. Let me sum up.” (Bonus points if you can name that great man and his catch phrase)
There are a number of reasons why I hate it so much. First, Vampire had been such a masterpiece, in my opinion, that my hopes and expectations were high that Werewolf would follow suit. I envisioned a game where cursed individuals were forced to deal with the hideous monster within, loss of control, and murderous rampages that they could barely remember upon waking. A game of personal horror. In hindsight, those were obviously unrealistic expectations when considering the medium – roleplaying games – a hobby predicated on group, social dynamics. Not individual, solo play.
I next made the assumption that the two games, Vampire and Werewolf, would fit well together in the same “universe”. From a purely game mechanic perspective, this belief proved to be wildly inaccurate. The easiest way to prove the disparity is to pit a Vampire against a Werewolf in combat. I know, I know – boiling an argument down to “who’s tougher in a fight” – I apologize in advance.
By changing form (something they can do at will with a dice roll, and if the roll fails, spend Rage to do it anyway), Werewolves gain considerable boosts to their primary combat attributes – Strength, Dexterity and Stamina; built-in aggravated damage weapons in their claws and fangs; and the ability to spend Rage points to increase the number of actions they can take during their turn in combat. In other words, spend 3 Rage and when your turn in combat occurs, take 4 actions. Any werewolf can do this, regardless of breed or experience. In other words, spend 2 Blood and, when your turn in combat occurs, take 1 action. Then you can take 2 more after everyone’s turn that round has occurred.
To boost their own combat attributes, Vampires must spend blood points, which in-turn limits their ability to fuel their vampiric Disciplines later on in the fight. Disciplines which would, in most cases, give the vampire more of a fighting chance. They have their fangs as aggravated damage weapons, but claws only if they have the Protean Discipline. Fangs require a successful grapple, claws do not. Vampires may also gain additional combat actions, but only if they possess the Celerity Discipline and must still spend Blood as well. The additional actions gained from Celerity, however, occur at the end of the combat round.
The balance is severely in favour of the Werewolf. Again - any werewolf gains those abilities, while only vampires with Protean and Celerity could have similar abilities but are still at a disadvantage even if they did. In the example above, the Werewolf could strike 4 times all at once (more if they split their dice pools), while the Vampire could only strike once and then have to wait before striking again. In one round of combat, depending on hit success and damage rolled, the vampire would likely be dead before even having a chance to act since the damage they receive is aggravated and therefore only soak-able if the vampire also possesses the Fortitude Discipline. Werewolves, however, have no such limitation and can not only soak aggravated damage, but heal it, at will by spending Rage at a rate of 1 to 1. Vampire healing is significantly more limited than that.
Now, some of you may say “That’s the point! Werewolves are unstoppable killing machines!” With respect, I disagree with the notion that certain supernaturals should trump all others in battle, like some sort of absurd game of rock-paper-scissors. Werewolf is a min-max'ing powergamer's wet dream.
What it truly boils down to, for me, is the fact that W:tA is not really a scary game. It’s bloody and violent, and often disgustingly gory, but that’s not horror to me. It’s also not really a game about werewolves. In an effort to make it a game that can be played by a group of people, they created a game about eco-warriors gifted with mystical superpowers that fight to save Mother Earth from the depredations of pollution and apathy.
Sounds fun if it were a super-heroes game, but is that really what you think of when you think of a werewolf? Be honest.
13 Comments
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1 Merits
Athoos
195 days ago
Any vamp who engages directly in combat with a werewolf is doing it all wrong. There are several ways to beat a Werewolf with different disciplines, without having to even land a blow: Presence: Use Dread Gaze from a save distance. A Rank 1 garou shouldn't have more than Willpower 5, so its really easy to make them flee (which would lower their Glory bwahahah). Dementation: Even the first dot, Passion, could drive a Werewolf out of their Crinos from, or make them unable to spend rage). Optionally a clever Malkavian would even be able to make the Garou rage to another thing/person or even a friend. Dominate: Sit puppy sit. Did I mention they should have around 5 Willpower? Making a Garou sit down is cake. Obtenebration: Shroud of Night. Fight is over. Unless the Garou has a Gift to replace sight for sense of smell, but that is Rank 2. By the time a Garou is Rank 2, a Lasombra should have Arms of the Abyss, so again.... Fight is over. Chimestry: Run around, build an imaginary wall, create the illusion of a Wyrm Spawn, fight is over. Is not like the Ravnos won, but is not dead. Killing a clever Ravnos is very, very hard. And I'm not even talking about high level disciplines. Most disciplines at high levels (4 or 5), would mean a certain defeat for a Rank 2 (even 3) Werewolf, specially, the mental ones.
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0 Merits
Rivina
197 days ago
That last paragraph? One day I'd love to be in a game where that was played straight. "Our world is in peril! Gaia, the spirit of the Earth, can no longer stand the terrible destruction plaguing our planet. She sends five magic rings to five youngsters who've just been through their First Change..."
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1 Merits
202 days ago
I was always a little bit put off by the fact that while the rulebooks make a big deal out of the Beast and the Rage, in practice very few scenes tend to focus on its presence in its respective host. I think for the most part it's been reduced to the status of a threatening mechanic - "If you kill this guy, you lose a dot in Humanity!" "If you don't attack the Wyrm Spawn, I'm going to make you roll against Rage!" ---- Never having read any of the Werewolf books yet (though I'm expecting W20 in January), it seems to focus a lot more on the combat and action elements of an RPG, whereas Vampire focuses more on social play and storytelling. (In theory for both.) I'm hoping there's going to be more to work with in W20 - AND that we see more story-things in the WODMMO for all included franchises.
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0 Merits
Lord Raath
202 days ago
I think it really comes down to the ST, I have played some super combat heavy Cam V:TM games and they were enjoyable as well. I do feel that running around tearing off heads kinda dilutes the horror side for Vampire though. On the other hand I feel the higher combat potential of characters in W:TA underpins the brand of horror there as it shows just how powerless you truly are. I do enjoy the teamwork aspect of W:TA as well; the "friends for now but I'll have you after" elements of pack dynamics are an interesting distraction from V:TM, where I spend most of my time trying to figure out how best put to use my new, uh, colleagues.
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1 Merits
202 days ago
In the balance of things, though, werewolves still can't command a vampire to "Sit, boy. Sit." and expect them to do it. If any vampire other than a powerhouse Gangrel or Brujah gets in combat with a werewolf, they're doing something wrong.
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1 Merits
jlcrowl
202 days ago
First: Trivia question answer: Inigo Montoya, from The Princess Bride. Next: I'm with you for the most part. I think that's why they changed so much for W:tF. Just by being a Werewolf, you can fly into a Death Rage due to mundane frustrations, kill everything around you, then come to with the blood of your dearest mortal friends on your hands. Way more horror-based.
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0 Merits
Shasta
204 days ago
Downside, though, if they made the game with traditional movie-style were-wolves, you'd never get to play one. You'd play a terrified, guilt ridden human, whom the DM controls 1 (or three) nights a month, and doesn't tell you what heppened. All you'd get is where you went to sleep and where you woke up, and if you were covered in blood etc. Works for a horror movie, not for an RPG, if you ask me. Much like WW changed around some of the basics of being a vampire to make it suit the game world, they've done the same with the werewolves. And I liked it :-)
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4 Merits
Lord Raath
204 days ago
I'm not sure that is a very fair representation of the game, I think that your dislike stems from the fact that you are approaching from the point of V:TM when in fact they are very different games. First off I would shy away from comparing the games via combat mechanics, I'm not sure the D10 system deals very well with combat in general anyway! It is also not at all true that werewolves trump all in combat, there are V:TM kindred "builds" that would munch through them, and if your average kindred is facing off against your average lycanthrope then he's failed to grasp some of the more basic points of kindred unlife. =p Personally I find the horror aspect of Werewolf to be far more real and actually easier to relate to than the one in Vampire. Knowing that your world is dying and it's all your fault. Gifted with incredible strength but almost powerless to avert fate. Watching all you know and care about dying day by day regardless of everything you achieve. The painful truth of W:TA is that all of your strength, all that power that you have *literally* at your fingertips cannot save your dying mother. When you rage, and believe me you will, it is little more than the death throws of a proud tribe that knows it's doomed and all shall be ash tomorrow, but not today, for today we fight! I would agree that some games become little more than a dice pool comparing exercise, but I would urge you to give the game a try with a more mature group. The coterie you have gamed with in the past in V:TM could be ideal, if you all approach it with the lore in mind and a willingness to immerse yourself in the story I think you might be pleasantly surprised. As with most WW games it is all about the story telling after all, and not the dice. You will fail of course, the apocalypse is coming and there is nothing you can do about it. That doesn't mean you can't fight though, and when the end comes it will find you ready, with klaive in hand and the blood of your foes wet on your face. You never know, the fury in your eye and clear ringing of you and your packmates howls may even give the Wyrm pause, if only for a second. But a second is all that you need... =)
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1 Merits
DoPo
206 days ago
Hello. My name is DoPo. You killed my love for WtA. Prepare to...be hated. :D Actually I never really liked Werewolf. I appreciated it, but it wasn't one of my favourite gamelines, the way I liked Vampire, Mage, and so on. I don't actually mind the gameplay, (aside from the horrible crossover mechanics) in fact I think it's s good game to introduce new players to the WoD. Especially, if they played something with lots of fighting before. In Werewolf, you can start off with just fighting and gradually introduce more things - some spirits, fomori, Pentex - foes about which you won't say "I roll to attack" but would require thinking outside the (combat) box - stealth, getting allies, investigation, acquiring McGuffins, and so on.
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